S2E3 | One Versus Many | Debate

Today we are debating one versus many board games. The proposition of this debate is do “one versus many board games reduce fun”?

Did your opinion change on one versus many board games? Who do you think won the debate? Does it make you want to play a one versus many board game?

Transcript

hello and welcome to the decking awesome

podcast

my name is owen and i’m joined by the

awesome kiera and brian

hey hello today we are debating one

versus many board games

this proposition of this debate is do

one versus many board games

reduce fun on the pro side is a real

professional nitpicker

but today is doing it for free it’s

brian

hi on the con side is a true

con artist looking to steal the win

today it’s kira hello

each person will have to lay out their

argument before the other person gets a

chance to refute it

for the opening statements we’re going

to start off with brian cool

so we are debating

the one player versus many players game

as opposed to

debating one board game versus many

board games because

arguing that one board game is less fun

than lots of board games it’s gonna be a

really tough sell

yeah but for the one player versus all

players

i think it’s great i don’t know why

people wouldn’t like us first of all it

adds a whole extra level of strategy to

it

you do have to think about you know if

if

you know from the start that you’re the

one person

you have to kind of plan for fighting

against a team

if you’re part of the team then you know

that the person you’re fighting against

is going to be

super powered or is going to have a lot

of big advantages just to balance it out

so you do have to try and work together

so it adds an extra element of strategy

whatever way you slice this if you know

you end up with a secret role

that makes it one versus many then you

know it adds a social deception element

to the game

and the likes of resistance or secret

hitler and things like that those kind

of social deception games are always

great fun

so you know why not why not add the

secret little oh who’s the enemy you’re

the enemy no it’s definitely you

because i know especially playing with

you two that you are instantly going to

accuse each other even if there’s no

evidence

there’s nothing to suggest that there’s

any that either of you is even remotely

the bad guy you’re

immediately going to accuse each other

and when i’m inevitably

the villain in it it’s great because you

two just point fingers at each other

constantly

you’re a hitler no that doesn’t do the

board game

[Laughter]

and i mean there’s there’s no reason not

to like it i mean most games are one v

all anyway just in these type of games

you’re everyone is working together so

really yeah yeah yeah really are we all

against each other in the grand scheme

of things

but i mean it’s win-win either way so if

you’re playing as a as the solo

player and you win then boom you’ve

crushed a team

if you are playing as a solo player and

you lose then you know oh sure i was up

against like four you i was never gonna

win

but if you’re playing as the co-op then

if you win

you’re like yeah we really worked

together and we crushed him despite all

his advantages

and if you lose you can just go the solo

guy was too powerful look at all the

advantages he had

it is win win win win win

it doesn’t matter what your slices all

v1 or one v

all is better yeah some interesting

points there definitely touched on

things like strategy and secret roles

and this whole kind of concept of one

versus all very cool brian to counter

this

we have the opening statement of kira so

i

i’m not a big fan of one versus all i

actually dislike playing them most of

the time

i find that the one we all isolates the

one

i think that things like in

dead of winter where you’re siding with

zombies

or you just effectively whatever you do

if you’re going against a group

you’re you’re have to side with the bad

guy you have to be part of the enemy and

i think that after building up like

in those games you want to build up a

co-op relationship you want to build up

like a fun

let’s work together let’s be great and

then

you have somebody who’s just betraying

you it feels like a betrayal and then it

feels like

the person who is the is the one on the

opposite side of the playing table

is always like slightly excluded it can

be quite lonely

it’s like in d d even dm’s

are on their own they can’t really talk

to the players about how great

substitutions it was

because the players will never know

what’s on the other side of that

situation they’ll never know

the background or what went into it or

what could have happened or what

couldn’t have happened

until way after the situation or the

whole thing is over

but for the whole game they’re just on

their own and i just hate that sense of

isolation

i play board games to be together with

people to be

talking to them and to be all in the

same situation and i

just think that i don’t play board games

to be isolated

and then i also think that the

distribution of resources

and gameplay rules can be really uneven

in a one vial

game people you can’t all get equal

resources because the one has to either

get more resources or have to apply

different rules

and then it’s very hard for people to

always keep in mind all the different

rules that you’re playing with

or not feel like hard done by

in like in a game like betrayal house in

the hill where you get a limited amount

of resources

and sometimes you get all the writings

and sometimes you get all the wrong

things

and this is a lot of look required in

that to win and it just

doesn’t feel like you’re getting a fair

chance because

it’s it’s really unbalanced and uneven

and it’s supposed to be that way and the

game designers designed it that way but

i just don’t feel like

i get the full feeling of the game from

it i just

random look has too much to say in it

and

yeah the different rules are hard to

keep track in your head and

i’m quite a smart person normally or at

least some of the time anyway

i still find having different rules for

different players a really weird

scenario to be in

and i don’t enjoy having having that

that situation well you heard it here

first guys

d doesn’t work get back the manuals

let’s go we can go home it doesn’t work

because it’s all against the dm

i love d i just say that i think that as

a when i’m a dm it’s quite lonely

like you guys don’t know what’s gonna

happen in storm king’s thunder

you’re all floofing about being players

i could know but you won’t let me cheat

true i won’t yeah that isolation of the

player is a kind of a very cool concept

uh because especially as playing dungeon

dragons as a dm i do feel

the players tend to forget that the dm

is also a player

which is kind of a pretty fundamental

thing obviously the dm has a totally

different set of rules and they’re

playing almost a separate game but brian

what do you feel about the isolation

aspect of it this separation between the

the uh it’s almost like as if that one

person is playing a different game

i don’t know like you guys clearly have

a different experience as a dm to me

because

you guys are looking at us being a dm as

being a

a one player and you’re part of it but

you’re not part of it

when i’m dming i look at myself as a god

i have complete control over you

what was was that a bit of sass hoarder

bears running at you

does that make for a better game though

because you’re if you play

in a god style then you’re just like

you make for a really unbalanced other

player

you make the world it seems like you

can’t win because the the god

dm is just going to throw out some sort

of horde of bears that you’re and you’re

a level 1 character

how dare you use my own point against me

in this debate

how dare you it just feels okay yeah

that’s a fair point yeah

i don’t like power playing if it

wouldn’t be all and the one is a power

player

i guess in board games there’s rules

that

maybe limit that somewhat more that they

can’t

ruin the game but not that i’ve had much

experience with dms who are

power players despite brian’s

claims um but i just feel that

at least it’s limited in board games so

that makes it a bit easier definitely in

things like descent and stuff where

there’s only so much the dm can do they

only have so many turns

they can’t just throw out 100 new

characters because there are rules so

i guess it’s better in board games if

you do have a power player

to to i suppose because i went off on a

god like rant

yes you’re right i suppose it is abyss

isolationist when you are playing as a

one person

but like at the same time i don’t think

you’re you’re by yourself like you’re

still playing the game with these people

you’re still sitting around the same

table you’re still having fun and

you know it it adds an extra element of

fun because you know you’re getting much

more powerful cards than your

partners or you know you might be able

to see more of the game or more of the

strategy than they

can see and i mean you get different

advantages

you’re still playing like i mean if you

are playing a one v

all game and it ends with none of you

talking to each other

for the rest of your lives then maybe

one vl wasn’t for you

but i think in the spirit of board games

you’re still going to walk away

afterwards and go oh that was great

i really enjoyed that yeah it’s kind of

almost like a variety

of board game types where someone could

sprinkle this in rather than it being

the mainstay because like you said like

with isolation and alpha gaming and

power gaming

if that’s the only game the only board

game you played there could become

hostilities

but with a sprinkling it could help out

kiera what do you think of

you know because everyone hates

computers what about if you use an

app as the alpha gamer the power gamer

in some of these board games and then

everyone can hate computers

instead of hating people well doesn’t

everyone hate computers

so i think uh i guess games like

manchester madness i really enjoy like i

think we played

a lot we have a few expansions for

manchester madness and we’ve played a

lot of the

levels in those and i really enjoyed

that but that’s because

like i guess from my perspective the

game is all about the interaction

between the people there

and not necessarily always about the

winning and the

the yeah the bad guy has been an app

then there is no one who’s isolated

you’re all against the computer the apps

might not be as good as people

and they might not be as clever as a

person could be if they were

really good at being the one we all

style player but

i really enjoy when it’s an app i really

like that’s one of my favorite style

co-ops

is where it’s adaptable a little bit

yeah the app is great like it’s it does

but it just it just makes it a co-op

game then it’s not a

one vr game and like the the app lacks

the ability to kind of

adapt or adjust so like if you’re

playing a game versus the app

and you know you definitely already have

the upper hand and you’re clearly gonna

win

whatever the scenario is the app can’t

just bang out a different card or

change tactics or do something different

it’s just going to follow

what it’s programmed to do it kind of it

takes away

the fun of it if you know you’re going

to win it doesn’t adapt it doesn’t

change it doesn’t try to beat you it

just does what it’s told

have we ever easily won mine to the

madness out of curiosity

manchester madness is not in question at

the moment

it is a game that we have pulled out our

hair trying to beat

but other games that might go against an

app that would be easy

okay okay fair enough yeah i think

you bring it up this whole thing of

improvisation and

apps not being able to kind of roll with

the punches where so here

in games where it’s like all against the

board game such as pandemic

what are what’s your opinion on

improvisation where the gameplay could

be too scripted

and easy to control well i think

pandemic

is an absolutely brilliant game we love

it i think we did another podcast on it

as well we love it that much

but we do win a lot in the basic

gameplay

like it’s like really rare for us to

lose when we just play a normal game of

pandemic even with like

we have all the panda our epidemic cards

in and

but that’s i guess the

joy now what pandemic is in the legacy

part of it

and maybe it was a little bit too easy

at the start but not everyone found that

like online it seems to have

mixed reviews on on whether it’s easy or

hard

a lot of that is to do with look and i

realized that

it’s being just a like a a non-smart

bad guy does in but i wouldn’t enjoy

pandemic as much if it was

if there was a person being the pandemic

that they would have a lot of power

which is great and it would probably be

an okay game to have another person in

because

because there’s a lot they can do they

can kind of

you know choose how it spreads but then

it wouldn’t really be a pandemic it

would more be

some sort of evil government poisoning

people and spreading some sort of

pandemic to the nation which i think

would have a very different team

really whereas pandemic is more random

so you know

and you know you’re just blaming a virus

on pretty much everything bad that

happened in the world which is

right now very very true to life yeah

there actually is an expansion to

pandemic where you become a bioterrorist

not super popular i think the team

really gets that people i forget the

whole team itself

because of covet is is touchy right now

sorry the expansion the legacy games do

have the advantage that

the fact that you have an impact on your

board

and over the longer term does make it

much harder and you only have yourself

to blame

but you so like you like co-op games

like

pandemic like a v all is just a co-op

game

except instead of playing against the

board or an app you’re playing against a

person

you just don’t like being the one person

you’re in favor of the games as long as

you’re not the lone player that’s not

true

so if you think about it betrayal house

on the hill i haven’t been the

one player ever and i still don’t like

that game trail on the house in the hill

once once that person

is revealed as the monster they just

kick our ass i just don’t think we’re

good at betrayal i’m house

once matt lost terribly i’d feel like or

maybe it was own

was it who was it somebody lost terribly

and

because everyone else had all the cars

that they needed

and like it just felt like that game

just deteriorated really quickly

as soon as the one was revealed

everything

everything on the board was set up

against that person like they had no

hope

so is that a criticism of one vl or is

that a criticism of the individual game

that could be it could be both but so

maybe betrayal house of the hill isn’t

the best example for this

but yet this whole comparison between

improvisation

and strategy of the board games in one

versus all games

is kind of interesting because i know

you mentioned in your opening statements

brian

how the strategy of one versus all is

very fun which uh

it is do you uh what’s your opinion on

is the strategy does the strategy make

up for this improvisation

issue that you can hit in with apps in

board games

or even just with people with like

that’s kind of especially in betrayal in

the house of the hill

where you’re kind of stuck with what you

get there’s

very little improvisation the person can

do like in betrayal and housing the hill

you know you don’t know who’s going to

become the

the monster that’s ultimately going to

fight against all of you

so i like that you have to kind of you

have to kind of work together to get

through the game

but also you don’t want to work too

closely with someone in case you find

yourself isolated

and instantly murdered so i do like that

but you have to kind of

you have to kind of adapt your strategy

instead of it being just a wholehearted

co-op game

where you’re all working together and

all trying to get a goal accomplished

now you have to kind of think laterally

as well you have to think kind of

what if this turns on me what if this

doesn’t work

you know what if i’m the monster i don’t

want to be

boxed away or instantly lose you know

it’s

it’s fun being the it’s fun adding the

extra element of strategy the extra

extra element of thinking

that you have to try and work everything

out like in in games where you know

from the start like dare to dream is is

a game by friends of ours and it’s a

it’s a

really fun game where you’re you’re

trying to get

kids to fall asleep and they’re or

trying to stay awake and they’ve got

little toys defending themselves and

stuff like that

it’s it’s great fun and like it’s very

well balanced

to you know that anyone could win it’s

like it could be

it could be the kids it could be the one

player and

but like having to think differently

also gives the game a lot of

replayability

because if you’re playing by as the one

player or you’re playing as the all

players

it’s going to be different each time

yeah yeah i i agree

what about when though you’re the one

player and like you want the bad things

to happen

like you know theory like the story is

woven in these board games

like dead of winter where you’re trying

to protect the people and

defend the town against the zombie

apocalypse the story is

is woven in such a way that you’re

siding with the survivors of the zombie

apocalypse

like you don’t want to be the bad guy i

don’t like being the bad guy

but if you’re the betrayer or if there

is a betrayer in the game

then you’re siding with the zombies you

know you you’re what everything you do

to sabotage the base

is something to help the zombies like

break through their

defenses maybe maybe we need a good

zombie apocalypse who knows

who knows we won’t know until uh we

don’t know until it happens

but like it’s fun though because that

you see that’s the social deception

element coming in again

where you know you can play like four or

five rounds with

playing along like you’re on everyone’s

side and then

boom just when it’s critical you throw

in a thing and no one has any clue

they’re like oh we obviously don’t have

a betrayer and then boom

betrayed out of nowhere and people might

play it off like oh you know i just

didn’t have any of the useful cards so

i’m just getting rid of the bad ones

maybe they’re the betrayer maybe they’re

genuinely not it adds a whole

new round of accusing each other and

i’ve seen

i’ve seen the joy in your eyes as the

two of you accuse each other

of being on the resistance team i do not

even pretend that you don’t love

blaming each other for everything going

wrong that’s a very separate issue

though

that has nothing to do with wouldn’t be

all that’s a very sibling thing as well

though i think

because when we play or when we play

with my sisters

we’re always accusing each other as well

so siblings clearly think theater is

evil

at all historical evidence

that’s true as well so uh yeah kira so

one of the things that i like about this

kind of secret role like brian was

talking about

this traitor mechanic is that is the

final reveal at the end

even if it isn’t you okay if it is

someone else i love the fact that

everyone is underestimated sees to find

out who was the traitor

was the the assumptions correct that

people made throughout the game

everyone probably figured out or like

guessed a specific way

and were they hoodwinked so is that is

that fun

of the secret role not worth having this

kind of mechanic

for me no i’m not i don’t

sit around waiting for the final reveal

i

just feel disappointed in everyone who

is bad who made bad choices with their

lives

i want people to be good even if they’re

the betrayer

uh yeah no maybe brian could defend this

more

no i i the absolute vindication like

even if

the betrayer like if i’m part of the

co-op team i’m on the good side of it

all

and we lose the game and at the end of

it the portrayal flips over the card and

goes

boom it was me all along that

vindication that feeling

though even though you’ve lost the game

you’re like i knew it

even though i’ve accused everyone across

the whole table at some point it’s like

i knew it i know i accused everyone else

but secretly deep down i knew it was you

the whole time

and i feel like that really adds an

element of fun to the game because even

though you’ve lost you’re not going

oh damn you know we could have won that

you’re going yes

i knew it was you i knew it was like did

i say it was you and then you still have

the whole big debate afterwards

with everyone accusing everyone of oh

you should have known and you did know

and i knew but we didn’t believe you

but you believed me you should have

believed me and

i like half of the fun of those type of

games where you discover who the

betrayer is right at the end is the half

an hour conversation afterwards where

you’re all still accusing each other

somehow

so brian here does bring up a good point

about the trader mechanic though

which is that it can take away the focus

of the story

obviously it depends on what kind of

story we’re trying to say

but for dead of winter for example the

trader mechanic does

take up the brunt of the uh kind of

focus by players rather than

you know surviving in a zombie

apocalypse and so do you feel like

if it can it be not annoying for players

once the trait once a trader mechanic

is brought in that it’s kind of

distracting people from it yeah yeah i

suppose you’re right like the

the trader mechanic is a full one but if

you know if you don’t like playing as

the trader

you know you have the advantage in dead

of winter i suppose of knowing

from the start that you’re the traitor

not like betrayal where you find out

halfway through but

like if you really want you know if you

really don’t want to play the trader you

can always

just ask can they can it can they be

dealt again

you know if everyone’s cool that you can

throw the cards back in

shuffle them up deal them again and

maybe someone else is a trader

although i really think if you were like

oh no no i absolutely don’t want to be

the trader

can we just shuffle again and throw all

the cards back in if you get it the

second time and keep it

oh god that has to be the best blood

because no one would see that coming

they’d be like man they made us

reshuffle the whole game

just so they don’t have to be the

traitor i cannot believe that they were

the traitor

i think i do think that if you’re just

cheating

if you get the trader you’re the trader

like i would never i would complain

about some other reason

but i wouldn’t complain that i just got

the trader and that was the game i know

but you

like if you if you don’t want to play

the trader and the trader is what ruins

the game for you

then ask for a re shuffle you know it’s

possible to avoid it

in yeah but i think i think what about

because i just want to go back onto the

story and the kind of like what story is

being told as players play the game

as the kind of focus because some people

may not like traders or may

like traders even if it was six people

who like the trailer mechanic

does it kind of get in the way of the

story that they’re trying to say

of like uh you know especially dead of

winter

personally i don’t think the trailer

mechanic should be so kind of focused

in dead of winter but i do understand

that that’s a really big part of

surviving in a zombie apocalypse is that

people can steal your bread

i don’t want people stealing my bread

but does it take up does it take up too

much focus

on the on the kind of what happens

through the game but i do love that i

love the end

and reveal of who is the trailer

mechanic that’s really cool

maybe maybe it does take away a little

bit but at the same time

you know because there isn’t always a

traitor in dead of winter

that it might just randomly be dealt and

there is no one as a trader

i actually think it’s it’s one

particular game that needs us

because if you’re all playing co-op

against zombies

it’s very easy to get ahead of the game

like you can

have barricades up and you can section

zombies off to areas and you if

you’re all working together and there’s

you know there’s no chance of being

betrayed

it’s not the most difficult game in the

world like

yeah you might lose but for the most

part

it’s a kind of two to three hour game

where there’s no real

excessive challenge or risk or anything

like that

you know you can you can play it safe

you can work together but without the

trailer mechanic and dead of winter

maybe it’s a bit simple no sure in other

games it does it

does kind of take away from it as you’re

focused just on the

1vl rather than enjoying the game or the

story or

the the plot or whatever it may be but i

think i think on the whole

you know it usually adds something to it

it improves the

it improves the fun of it because i mean

look at look at any zombie show that’s

been on there’s

always a person traitor in it it always

happens and

i feel like inevitably it would happen

in the real world where

people are just you know they’re selfish

and they’re looking out for themselves

you know they’re not on the side of

zombies they’re not rooting for the

zombies but

they’re looking out for themselves and i

feel like that’s probably

accurately how it would probably play

out i’m disappointed in your version of

humanity

i too am disappointed but i prefer to

think of myself as a realist

uh i i love dead of winter you can also

be a dog in it uh i just want to mention

that because that’s

awesome when the dog’s the betrayer

that’s when it really hurts

i gave you hugs the dog brought us

gasoline instead of food oh god

[Laughter]

okay cool so uh kiera do you have any

solutions for

these one versus many type of games out

there

or not playing them

like i guess i just like other

style games i don’t know that uh there

needs to be a solution

for this like i can appreciate that

other people like them i just find that

maybe something like king of tokyo where

you can choose to be the person who’s

the betrayer

where you have more choices without it

ruining the game

i think is is probably good because

there are people who love to be the

betrayer

like don’t get me wrong and they don’t

mind that they’re isolated from the

other players

and they quite enjoy getting to try and

be

as cruel as they can while still

following the rules

and i think that that’s great i guess in

that instance i wouldn’t mind that it

wasn’t an app

so like i’m not i just i

i haven’t loved that scenario ever

so i don’t know that there is like a

solution i definitely think having rules

to kind of constrain people from just

being cruel

definitely helps limited resources

limited amount of turns and actions

but things like in descent in descent

the

person who is playing as the the bad guy

there’s only so much they can do in a

turn

but they do have like the option of

their bad guys respawn

all the time and it can seem like an

endless onslaught

but i i don’t think i’d like that i know

the irony because

it’s very similar to dming and i like to

dm but

i i think that the rules do limit that

though in in how much

i guess that the damage they can do if

they’re really enjoying it and then if

they don’t enjoy it i don’t think i’d

like to be i don’t think i’d like to be

the one

in in descent it wouldn’t be all yeah

because in dissent there is a specific

rule that says

if you’re playing the descent and you’re

finding that players are struggling to

win

maybe just take it easy on them which i

love that rule kind of showing that

the whole point is to have fun and

although you can beat them

that shouldn’t be your main goal which

is cool but it is a different approach

than

what i think people would expect from

kind of dissent

brian do you have any tips for getting

the most out of one versus many you like

these kind of did

a lot of these type of games whether

it’s dm’ing or trader mechanics

is there any tips yeah i think you know

if you’re

playing on the co-op side of things

you’re on the the team you know

enjoy it work well together you know

even if there is a

secret traitor in it you know enjoy the

co-op side of it like

the games like pandemic and that that

are all cooperative are great fun

because you’re

really working together so if you are on

the team enjoy that element of it

if you’re playing as the solo player the

one who’s against the all

you know just enjoy being super powerful

or enjoy being sneaky or

enjoy trying to cast doubt on who’s the

betrayer

throughout the whole game like a lot of

games

uh that are one v all are are quite well

balanced so you

do end up with you know there’s a chance

the one player will win there’s a chance

the team will win

really just like enjoy the side you’re

playing

because it it’s rare to get

a chance in a board game to either be a

superpower who has a chance of beating

five other players

or to be a co-op against a player who

you know has the ability to adapt to

what you’re doing so

have fun there you go there’s here

a nice cheesy wrap up on that one yeah

it’s cool it’s a cool concept to have

uh one versus all especially in these

kind of places

you know we have the thing you’re

talking about like alpha gaming having

maybe the person who

usually is an alpha gamer playing other

types of board games who’s taking

control

maybe make them the one versus all and

then you know see if all your friends

can beat them

but yeah i don’t i don’t think that

really works as well because it’s just

it’s not really as fun

as it could be yeah there’s the only

other example of a one versus all type

of games

are hidden movement games such as

letters from white chapel and fury of

dracula

we haven’t really gotten a chance to get

to grips with these kind of games does

emily have any opinions

on these kind of games you know it’s

it’s funny we were we were watching a

video on the fury of dracula to try and

see

could we could we learn any more about

it before this and myself and carol were

sitting there watching us

and i was watching at the will wheaton

uh version of us

and i sit there going this game looks

amazing i really want to play this

and kyra sat there beside me going oh

god no what are you talking about this

game looks terrible

really really kind of hammered home that

we’re definitely on the right sides of

this debate

yeah because brian at the end of the

video seemed totally

like i was like oh this is terrible and

i looked over to say that to him

and he was like so confused as to how we

got such a different experience out of

the same video we hit this boat watch

the edge of my cease that was all i was

using the edge of the seat the whole

rest of the seat wasted

just the edge yeah it’s true because

games like that

have a lot of improvisation like we said

before and so if you’re dracula and

you’re

trying to you know hide around europe

you can’t really

simulate that in an app because people

will just know where dracula goes

so you need that kind of human element

into it to be the one to be dracula

but then you also have the team of

vampire hunters

who are working together so yeah

to figure out if you want to be a

dracula or not really depends on do you

think you can

beat the teamwork of all the other

players so yeah it’s cool concept

well i’m definitely gonna have to get it

now and i’m not gonna play with you

damn it all right so let’s ask what do

you think

proves that one versus all either works

or doesn’t work so brian do you have a

game that proves

how poorly one versus many can turn out

uh so it’s the opposite side of what

you’re thinking for me yeah

yeah for me kind of king of tokyo is one

that doesn’t really work as a one for

all

i actually did like your point here that

you know you

don’t have to stay as the one player

that you can switch back and forth

between being the one or the all

but i don’t think it works for the

reason that as while you are the player

who’s in tokyo

you know you have to you’re trying to

survive the round so you can get bonus

points

but at the same time you’re just

hammered by the other players

like all the players can just dedicate

to attacking you and weakening you and

killing you

and if you do survive you end up

spending the next two rounds

maybe trying to just recover health

rather than

advancing yourself in the game so by

volunteering yourself as the one or by

being volunteered

you end up kind of nearly set back in

the game there has to be nearly a

balance of

get in get the points get out which is

very hard to do in king of tokyo

now as a five and six player game where

you kind of have a second player in the

city as well

it works a bit better because it’s not

just one getting hammered by all

but it’s kind of two getting hammered by

four

so it’s not as devastating but that

that’s one where kind of

the one v all isn’t balanced

but you don’t have to stay as the one

you can but you don’t have to

so for me that’s a game where it doesn’t

work well

it’s a fun game but the one vr doesn’t

work

it’s kind of a unique take on the one we

all taking that snippet of a mechanic in

king of tokyo

like the main mechanic king of tokyo

and comparing it to one versus all

that’s really good idea

kira do you have an example of a game

that uses one versus

many really well and what do you like

about it so my example

funnily enough for this was the exact

same as brian example for the last

question

so i think the king of tokyo plays is a

really enjoyable one vr game

i think it’s like so the first you have

to

agree to be the player in the middle for

a long period of time

you might get thrown in there against

your will for a short period

but you can leave pretty quickly but for

the people who like to stay in they can

stay in and attack everyone all they

want

and their like driving force seems to be

to hit people as much as they can

or they really enjoyed us doing that

much damage but

it’s more like it’s a choice so

people who like that sort of who want to

be in the middle

can be in the middle and it’s not the

only way to win the game

you can attempt to to uh

just outlive everyone else and focus on

that

and collecting energy which i i’m not so

sure about the energy mechanic

i know but the killing each other is

usually how it goes in king of tokyo i

mean how many games have we won by just

getting the points

usually it’s just murder murder murder

and usually the person who stays out of

trouble

that wins and i like that the person who

tried to be good and not kill everyone

he usually does a good job i just think

i also think it’s quite random

i think that you don’t feel like you’re

the bad guy

too much in it because you can just

leave and

yeah sure you attack people but you’re

never really trying to kill them because

you’re trying to kill everyone

you’re not trying to kill like in some

games where it’s one of y’all

you have to pick off each of the players

individually right like betrayal house

in the hill

whereas in king of tokyo you’re just

generically

mauling everyone because you’re the king

of tokyo and i like

i like that kind of indiscriminate bad

guy where you’re not picking out

people it’s it’s a little more it’s a

little more broad just everyone’s

collateral damage exactly

exactly and i like that the one we all

the one rotates

i think uh you men both of you have

mentioned this kind of idea of

choice in one vl a couple of times

before obviously brian you didn’t

in king of tokyo you’re forced to go

into king to be the king sometimes

and care likes the fact that you can

choose you sell a choice when you’re

forced to do it

but there’s also plenty of times you

guys have mentioned choice beforehand

brian do you think choice is uh i don’t

really know how to kind of ask this

question because you can’t choose to be

dracula you have to pick it beforehand

but say something like dead of winter

where instead of

being given the traitor you know user

you actually could choose to be a

traitor

halfway through the game or something

like that would that make kind of one

for all games

more fun um you know what

it actually might be an interesting

addition to dead of winter where you can

just

flip to being a trader halfway through

it wouldn’t

work if you chose to be the trader at

the start

because like if you go oh i’ll be the

trainer yep hands up this guy over here

me

no one’s going to trust you for the rest

of the day yeah but

yes some benefit to flipping back and

forth

in and out of traitor as it suits your

individual objective yeah maybe that

that would be a that would be a very

interesting

addition to it i think even in dare to

dream

where we rotated it who was the

nightmare

and who wasn’t or the nightmare

controller

um i can’t remember the terminology now

uh

but i think that that that works okay

because

it was quite short game and then you

would only have to be the one for a

short period of time

i think in in fury or dracula the one

thing that that looked like it had as

the advantage was the person

has chosen and dissent sorry the person

has chosen that like own you were the dm

for dissent or the equivalent to the dm

for descent

and i guess when i have the choice it’s

probably not so bad

like i do like to dm and that’s because

i’m choosing that so you know i i

i could choose i should have chosen not

to run a campaign i

i think that that makes a big difference

i just feel like where you don’t get the

choice

it probably makes for i find a worse

experience the trailer has in the hill

or dead of winter doesn’t feel like if i

was sitting down for the game

and i really wanted to play dead of

winter and fight zombies and then i was

like well i’m fighting zombies but i’m

of also screwing these people over that

wasn’t what i sat down to play

so i don’t like it much yeah it’s it’s

it’s the choice thing is a strange one

i’ve heard of dms

who i kind of like what you’re talking

about with king of tokyo brian instead

of having one dm

it’s two or three dms uh very hard to

conceptualize

but the dms will have players and

they’ll play but then

when they go up to an npc it’s like

anybody can decide to play that mvc

which is a strange concept they choose

so like you go up to the king and the

king is like you know

you know some sarah will like start

discussing

uh pretending to be the king and then

she’ll be either like hostile or she’ll

be like

uh you know she’ll have some sort of

motivation and it’s like a shared

dm kind of thing where everyone chooses

to play

npcs instead no at the same time those

those games never work out

it’s always chaos because someone will

just say a giant dragon appears

or a cave troll is now in the room um

it’s like any sort of improvisation

thing you kind of need a little bit of a

structure

but um it’s a kind of a cool concept

idea of choice

and adding that in which is yeah some

kind of cool things to think about

so obviously we mentioned this very

early on that the pandemic has an

expansion called the bioterrorists

which thematically it doesn’t sound so

great but you know it works as a game as

the expansion where one person

can then become the person that’s

spreading the disease across the

world against a bunch of players can

either of you think of games which would

work

well by adding in one versus many a game

that doesn’t have it right now

whereas you put an expansion that says

hey here’s the one versus many expansion

uh that’s an interesting you know i’m

it’s probably a bit out there but i’m

gonna say terraforming mars

i think that would actually be quite fun

if you could be the one as the planet

you’re like you’re resisting the

terraforming as you know

humans have landed they’re making

drastic sweeping changes to your surface

and

to your atmosphere and everything like

that that if you know the planet just

had

not even retaliation but just reactions

to the stuff the players are doing

like you know maybe a met you could open

a methane pocket

that would reduce the o2 levels or you

know you could have

glaciers that by heating up one area it

cools another area and you can decrease

the temperature or you know

like earthquakes and things like that

thus you know affect

habitats and that that the players have

set up that you could have

uh you know basically you’re the players

are still trying to terraform they’re

trying to build their own

habitats and set up whatever they’re

still going for the individual win

but the planet is also fighting back

against them so

the planet or the one player would win

by

delaying their terraforming enough that

they can’t they can’t do it in in time

but the players could still win by you

know getting the oxygen

and the temperature up enough that the

planet is considered terraformed

and then it goes to the individual

winner because that’s still an

an all the all game but

you would also have an element of you

have to cooperate

because i think terraforming whereas the

one that’s always confused me is the

temperature and the oxygen like

you’re raising them but once they get

all the way up the game’s over

you know if you’re behind the incentive

is to not

raise them if you’re winning the

incentive is to try and push it on so

that

the game ends quickly but if they’re

fighting against the planet working

against them

they have to cooperate but they also

have to try and do their own thing

yeah interesting idea yeah i think that

way you could also even have like a

choice in there where players

can become uh environmentalists or

whatever to prevent

people from colonizing marriage nice to

choose going through

it it reminds me of a game called spirit

island

which is a multiplayer game where people

are spirits on this island trying to

prevent

colonizers coming over obviously it’s

not set in space

and it doesn’t have like other things

that terraforming mirrors those

but and it’s not that spirit island is

not one versus many as well but that’s a

really cool idea of having us

having a mars be alive yeah

resistant to it that’s a cool idea so if

that game is made and uh

i’m sorry i feel like i should know who

the manufacturers of terraforming mars

are

if you do make that game you know just

hit me up i’ll give you the address to

send the check for the commission

perfect thanks okay i think it’s time

now for closing statements this is in

reverse order of the opening statements

so up first is

kira so i still think that one

all isn’t the the style of play for me

i don’t think that i can be convinced

that that big reveal has worked all the

effort

that having to be against the players

that you’ve decided to spend your

afternoon playing with brings about so

i i don’t i i wasn’t convinced

to change my mind on this i like to play

co-op and i like to play the brian

brings a good point of

everyone against each other that normal

board games are

but i like to be in a win i like to be

on a level playing field

and i just don’t think that the extra

mechanics

always work the adding in

rules for that one person versus the

rest of the people

i don’t think that always works i just

think it’s it’s a way around

way around having a clever board game

that can

come up with rules that mean you don’t

need one person to

to be the bad guy cool that’s great and

the closing statement of brian so i

i agree that one vr you know isn’t for

everyone

but i do think the addition of like the

extra element of strategy

and improvement in replayability and

like a really well balanced game

all adds to the fun adds to you know

extra twists adds a bit of social

deception you know it improves games

that might otherwise not be the most

challenging or

uh the most interesting oh well i won’t

mention any i love all board games

etc but you know it adds

it adds a certain element of fun

strategy thinking

two games and you know it if you don’t

even have to take my word for it

if you want to look back through the

history books you can see that one vl

games have been

hugely popular for a long time because

like as the musketeers used to say

1v all and all v1 and i will accept no

correction

on the pronunciation of any of that it’s

close close

no no it’s correct

it’s a while since i read the book but

pretty sure that’s exactly how it goes

so even the musketeers were in favor of

one vl games

a lot of great ideas and opinions thank

you very much for both of you for

doing the debate and kind of sharing us

what your ideas and

and kind of really grappling with this

issue that pretty much wraps it up for

this debate

so did your opinion change on one versus

many board games

who do you think won the debate does it

make you want to play a one versus

many board game comment on our social

media to tell us and decide who won

if you enjoyed it share it we’ve been

decking out some games

thanks for listening see ya bye bye